Author
|
Topic: Polygraph Instrument Quality
|
BrunswickT Member
|
posted 01-30-2008 09:14 PM
I'm looking for some experienced feed-back comparing the different computerized polygraph instruments. In reviewing the various websites, I see that only Stoelting is critical of both Axciton and Lafayette. What have your overall experiences been? What about service support? I'm interested in both good and bad experiences with any of the instruments. Is it worth purchasing more than one brand?Has anyone had experience with Lafayette's LX5000?? Even for trial test purposes? I'm shopping around.
IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-30-2008 09:21 PM
I used a Lafayette 4000 for a few years at the PD, and we recently purchased a Stoelting CPS II. I own a Limestone. I haven't had any problems to speak of with any of them regarding service / help. Lafayette was always slow at telling me of new software updates, but that's it.IP: Logged |
Taylor Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 04:45 AM
I have always been witn Lafayette. I am completely happy with the equipment and I haven't had any problems on getting software late. They are extremely nice and easy to work with on any defects and/or mishaps. If there is a problem, they will next day ship you out a replacment - then you send in your equipment for them to diagnose, fix and or replace. I wouldn't change companies. I am completely satisfied with Lafayette. I haven't seen th LX5000 but I have heard great things about it. IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 08:16 AM
This may be one of those topics like politics, religion, philosophy, statistics, the super-bowl, polygraph scoring, and what we did at work today - for which you don't talk about it at the dinner table, or with your in-laws.I'm sure a lot of people have a lot more thoughts and feelings about his, but don't want to alienate others. So how to get the conversation going... We could have an official polygraphplace.com marketing moment and invite the instrument manufacturers (who are probably always lurking) to tell us about their merits of their products. We might also start by asking examiners to tell us about the best features of the instrument - everything they really like. Then, to get some improvement ideas into the air, we could ask examiners to politely describe what they dislike about, or are disappointed about, the various instruments. It might be fair to say that none of them are terrible and don't work, but for field examiners its hard to see through marketing fog. This is probably true in any field, just look at the American auto industry, and the computer software industry. - more later. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 10:44 AM
I'm sure the manufacturers are a little gun shy from the last time you suggested they only lurk after firing a shot through the bow.I'm up for such a conversation, but we'd really need somebody from the companies to respond to do the discussion any justice I would think. IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 11:07 AM
Again I beg, if the web forum was UPGRAYDDed, we could have a separate thread category called "Software and Hardware" and the discussions could all be found and focused in that particicular area----so one doesn't need to scour the entire web forum looking for the topic in archived posts and through the present faulty internal search engine.IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 12:58 PM
The idea would be a sanctioned marketing moment...and I'll promise to sit on my hands... unless someone says something inaccurate, misleading, or disparaging to someone else's favorite instrument. Funny thing is that I think we all learned from the last round. Shawn from Stoelting provided some information that was very interesting. I later met Shawn at APA. He's a great guy - smart, educated, and ful of all kinds of knowledge. I later had a very enjoyable conversation with him over the telephone. At the very least we could hear from examiners regarding the merits and limitations of their instruments. Good physiological data data is the heart and soul of the polygraph. What makes data good (besides pretty pictures on the screen)? Good signal to noise without unnecessary or unaccounted for filtration or alteration of the data. The other thing that has become apparent to me is the value and importance of storing the physiological data in a way that is actually useable beyond making pretty pictures of the data on the computer screen. The best solution would be to store physiological data in a way that is easy to import into a spreadsheet or statistical analysis software, including all data and event markers - without decoding, translation or interpretation. That means some form of ASCII or unicode data. XML sounds OK, but not for the large numbers of rows and columns of data that are generated when sampling four, five or more channels a many many times per second. .csv is ideal, as its been around forever, and is easily understood by anyone who wants to study or work with the data. Undocumented proprietary binary data file formats have got to go. Computer storage space is cheap. Security is managed by the operating system these days. Anyone who claims the need for binary file formats for security reasons or storage space is proffering an excuse (lying). Lack of access to the data will continue to hold our profession back. What progress has been made is due in large part to our ability to access the physiological data and measurements via third-party tools, built under contracts, that do basic things like output Kircher measurements (a very small set of numbers representing the physiological data). This is so simple that its negligent of equipment vendors not to do it themselves. Things like Kircher measurements are documented in published research. Why wouldn't the equipment vendors want to suppport access to the physiological measurements, as described in the journals? Better still would be some form of industry standard for the storage of data in a useable form. ASTM would be the ideal vehicle for that, but the committee is strangely silent about things like this, and other important topics. Of course, features and technical support are important too. OK, end of rant. (sitting on hands now).
r ------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 01:07 PM
Okay, as far as ASCII data goes, I think Limestone and Stoelting now import and export in the new DACA standard. I'm not sure about Lafayette, but I'm pretty confident Axciton is still propriety. quote: Better still would be some form of industry standard for the storage of data in a useable form. ASTM would be the ideal vehicle for that, but the committee is strangely silent about things like this, and other important topics.
Are you an ASTM member? It's a few of us with little time being bogged down by all kinds of issues, but I suspect that's on the list. Bruce White told me he doesn't care what ASTM has to say as he's going to do his own thing, so I don't know what that would do anyhow. As it is, his hybrid EDA channel violates ASTM, APA, NPA and, I think, AAPP standards. That doesn't mean we should write such a standard, but we need to educate people beyond ASTM as to the need for having the data available. IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 01:12 PM
New DACA standard? For data? Sounds about time. I'll go one step further, and assert that any instrument manufacturer cannot realistically claim their instrument suitable for research unless they provide the physiological data, including all physiology channels, timing-scales, and event markers in a form that is easily imported to a spreadsheet or statistical software package. Data that cannot be studied is essentially worthless. (back to sitting on hands). r ------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 01-31-2008).] IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 01:35 PM
OK---so you are saying that some instruments present raw data (0's and 1's and computersquak) so that computers can "plug into" the charts? Could you please list the encrypted instrument data (unusable for sharing with researchers)brand(s) and the generalized (usable) formated ones?:Stoelting Lafayete Axiton Limestone Thanks
![Photobucket](Polygraph%20Instrument%20Quality%20-%20Polygraph%20Place%20Bulletin%20Board_files/Napoleon-and-the-Time-Machine_19-1.gif.html)
IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 02:45 PM
Okay, I just looked for the first time. The new export function is DACA's "PDDRFRMT." ASCII and Binary were already choices. Limestone is working on that one too. I don't know about the other two.IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 02:48 PM
I've asked Shawn to come explain it, but he may need more assurances from Ray. Perhaps duct tape rather than just sitting on those hands?IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 02:59 PM
OK,Here are some graphics. First the Axciton file structure. This is where the data are actually stored.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/axciton_directory.jpg) I've organized this into folders myself - by Examinee. Axciton stores everything in a single folder. This is what you'll get if you try to open the data itself. Not useful at all.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/axciton_binary_data.jpg) Here is the directory for Stoelting. Not Much different
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Stoelting_directory.jpg) Stoelting will output exam data to ASCII format - this is really important.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/stoeling_ascii.jpg) Stoelting also makes the Kircher measurements available in their text-file report. You have to work to get them, but you can get them. Some of the work can be automated. ![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/stoelting_measurements.jpg)
The Lafayette directory.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Lafayette_directory.jpg) And the binary data file - argh!
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Lafayette_data.jpg) To be fair, they provide the ability to record ascii data, but it is OFF by default. It should be ON by default, because the do not provide the ability to go back and get the data later. Lafayette's very patient and intelligent programmer Kevin has given me a debug version that can do this, but it should be a standard feature.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Lafayett_ascii.jpg) The great thing about ascii data is that us humans can do things with it. The only ongoing limitation for Lafayette is that they do not output a time-scale or list of event markers. So, it still does us very little good - because we can't define when things happen. Another limitation (for researchers and number crunchers) is that although Lafayette includes an OSS-2 tool, they do not output the Kircher measurement data in any location that I can find. This is easily fixed, and will hopefully be addressed soon. Most of us will recognized this as a pneumo segment.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Lafayett_pneumo_plot.jpg) Here is a screenshot of the Limestone directory.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Limestone_directory.jpg) You can see they provide an event list that is easily available.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Limestone_events.jpg) The Limestone data is easy to access and understand - and includes a time-scale for each component.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Limestone_data.jpg) Ascii data is easy to plot and study.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Limestone_plot.jpg) And Limestone provides ascii output of the Kircher measurement data.
![](urn:download-error:http://www.raymondnelson.us/other/20080131/Limestone_measurements.jpg) Enjoy.
r ------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 01-31-2008).] IP: Logged |
Shawn Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:04 PM
Hello Everyone,The new DACA format (PDDRFRMT) will allow researchers and examiners to view charts produced by any vendor's instrument as long as your vendor's software allows you to import and export in PDDRFRMT. I hope this helped! Shawn IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:11 PM
Hi Shawn! Thanks for sending me the software update. Are you as cccccold in IL as we are in IN?IP: Logged |
Shawn Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:12 PM
Here is an example of 1 second of data from a CPS II chart:Sample Time UPneumo LPneumo EDR Cardio Move Event 1 00:00.00 -2320.0 -2320.0 -2320000.0 -2320.0 0.0 ------ 2 00:00.02 -2320.5 -2320.5 -2320500.0 -2320.5 0.0 ------ 3 00:00.03 -2321.0 -2321.0 -2321000.0 -2321.0 0.0 ------ 4 00:00.05 -2321.5 -2321.5 -2321500.0 -2321.5 0.0 ------ 5 00:00.07 -2322.0 -2322.0 -2322000.0 -2322.0 0.0 ------ 6 00:00.08 -2322.5 -2322.5 -2322500.0 -2322.5 0.0 ------ 7 00:00.10 -2323.0 -2323.0 -2323000.0 -2323.0 0.0 ------ 8 00:00.12 -2326.0 -2326.0 -2326000.0 -2326.0 0.0 ------ 9 00:00.13 -2329.0 -2329.0 -2329000.0 -2329.0 0.0 ------ 10 00:00.15 -2332.0 -2332.0 -2332000.0 -2332.0 0.0 ------ 11 00:00.17 -2335.0 -2335.0 -2335000.0 -2335.0 0.0 ------ 12 00:00.18 -2338.0 -2338.0 -2338000.0 -2338.0 0.0 ------ 13 00:00.20 -2341.0 -2341.0 -2341000.0 -2341.0 0.0 ------ 14 00:00.22 -2344.7 -2344.7 -2344666.8 -2344.7 0.0 ------ 15 00:00.23 -2348.3 -2348.3 -2348333.2 -2348.3 0.0 ------ 16 00:00.25 -2352.0 -2352.0 -2352000.0 -2352.0 0.0 ------ 17 00:00.27 -2355.7 -2355.7 -2355666.8 -2355.7 0.0 ------ 18 00:00.28 -2359.3 -2359.3 -2359333.2 -2359.3 0.0 ------ 19 00:00.30 -2363.0 -2363.0 -2363000.0 -2363.0 0.0 ------ 20 00:00.32 -2351.7 -2351.7 -2351666.8 -2351.7 0.0 ------ 21 00:00.33 -2340.3 -2340.3 -2340333.2 -2340.3 0.0 ------ 22 00:00.35 -2329.0 -2329.0 -2329000.0 -2329.0 0.0 ------ 23 00:00.37 -2317.7 -2317.7 -2317666.8 -2317.7 0.0 ------ 24 00:00.38 -2306.3 -2306.3 -2306333.2 -2306.3 0.0 ------ 25 00:00.40 -2295.0 -2295.0 -2295000.0 -2295.0 0.0 ------ 26 00:00.42 -2270.2 -2270.2 -2270166.8 -2270.2 0.0 ------ 27 00:00.43 -2245.3 -2245.3 -2245333.2 -2245.3 0.0 ------ 28 00:00.45 -2220.5 -2220.5 -2220500.0 -2220.5 0.0 ------ 29 00:00.47 -2195.7 -2195.7 -2195666.8 -2195.7 0.0 ------ 30 00:00.48 -2170.8 -2170.8 -2170833.2 -2170.8 0.0 ------ 31 00:00.50 -2146.0 -2146.0 -2146000.0 -2146.0 0.0 ------ 32 00:00.52 -2112.5 -2112.5 -2112500.0 -2112.5 0.0 ------ 33 00:00.53 -2079.0 -2079.0 -2079000.0 -2079.0 0.0 ------ 34 00:00.55 -2045.5 -2045.5 -2045500.0 -2045.5 0.0 ------ 35 00:00.57 -2012.0 -2012.0 -2012000.0 -2012.0 0.0 ------ 36 00:00.58 -1978.5 -1978.5 -1978500.0 -1978.5 0.0 ------ 37 00:00.60 -1945.0 -1945.0 -1945000.0 -1945.0 0.0 ------ 38 00:00.62 -1906.8 -1906.8 -1906833.4 -1906.8 0.0 ------ 39 00:00.63 -1868.7 -1868.7 -1868666.6 -1868.7 0.0 ------ 40 00:00.65 -1830.5 -1830.5 -1830500.0 -1830.5 0.0 ------ 41 00:00.67 -1792.3 -1792.3 -1792333.4 -1792.3 0.0 ------ 42 00:00.68 -1754.2 -1754.2 -1754166.6 -1754.2 0.0 ------ 43 00:00.70 -1716.0 -1716.0 -1716000.0 -1716.0 0.0 ------ 44 00:00.72 -1675.3 -1675.3 -1675333.4 -1675.3 0.0 ------ 45 00:00.73 -1634.7 -1634.7 -1634666.6 -1634.7 0.0 ------ 46 00:00.75 -1594.0 -1594.0 -1594000.0 -1594.0 0.0 ------ 47 00:00.77 -1553.3 -1553.3 -1553333.4 -1553.3 0.0 ------ 48 00:00.78 -1512.7 -1512.7 -1512666.6 -1512.7 0.0 ------ 49 00:00.80 -1472.0 -1472.0 -1472000.0 -1472.0 0.0 ------ 50 00:00.82 -1402.0 -1402.0 -1402000.0 -1402.0 0.0 ------ 51 00:00.83 -1332.0 -1332.0 -1332000.0 -1332.0 0.0 ------ 52 00:00.85 -1262.0 -1262.0 -1262000.0 -1262.0 0.0 ------ 53 00:00.87 -1192.0 -1192.0 -1192000.0 -1192.0 0.0 ------ 54 00:00.88 -1122.0 -1122.0 -1122000.0 -1122.0 0.0 ------ 55 00:00.90 -1052.0 -1052.0 -1052000.0 -1052.0 0.0 ------ 56 00:00.92 -986.8 -986.8 -986833.3 -986.8 0.0 ------ 57 00:00.93 -921.7 -921.7 -921666.7 -921.7 0.0 ------ 58 00:00.95 -856.5 -856.5 -856500.0 -856.5 0.0 ------ 59 00:00.97 -791.3 -791.3 -791333.3 -791.3 0.0 ------ 60 00:00.98 -726.2 -726.2 -726166.7 -726.2 0.0 ------ 61 00:01.00 -1052.0 -1052.0 -1052000.0 -1052.0 0.0 ------ IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:13 PM
Now, in'nat pretty? Hiya Shawn. Looking at pictures of data as charts on screen is not the same as having access to the numerical data. Thanks for the info.
r
------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 01-31-2008).] IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:19 PM
Wow. Ray, you like that stuff, eh?Looks like my last cell phone bill. ![Photobucket](Polygraph%20Instrument%20Quality%20-%20Polygraph%20Place%20Bulletin%20Board_files/Spock.jpg.html)
IP: Logged |
rnelson Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:28 PM
stat,Nobody really likes looking at that stuff. But its good to know its there. If we don't plan and think ahead, then a lot of time goes by without doing much study or learning. Then we get criticized for not keeping pace with other fields of science. So, its important that our equipment developers and vendors provide us with gear that can play nice with others. Access to our own data, means that interested people get to do something productive. r ------------------ "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room." --(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)
IP: Logged |
Shawn Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 03:28 PM
Any time! Yes Eric it is and has been CCCOLD. I hate Chicago winters! IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 04:01 PM
"Chicago winters are nice......if you're a moose"-----Lewis Black, on The Oprah ShowIP: Logged |
Shawn Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 04:16 PM
Yes indeed. In regards to the new format, the practical use in the field will be that examiners will now be able to import all of those "phone bill" reports into their own system and view the polygraph charts and perform QC for one another. IP: Logged |
Ted Todd Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 06:03 PM
You guys are way overthinking this. Just post a picture of Sue Luttrell from Axciton and you will see why I prefer Axciton. I think all four companies make a great product but I would much rather spend time on the phone with Sue rather than Jamie or Chris!(sorry guys)Ted IP: Logged |
stat Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 07:20 PM
Ted, good to see your judgement isn't affected by carnal impulses.Stoelting has always been more than good to me. They paid for a family cruise for me last summer, with tickets to a Dolphins game. I hear Axciton has Subway Sandwich coupons though. lol
[This message has been edited by stat (edited 01-31-2008).] IP: Logged |
Barry C Member
|
posted 01-31-2008 07:35 PM
"That's funny. I don't care who you are."Larry IP: Logged |
Ted Todd Member
|
posted 02-01-2008 09:23 AM
Stat....sorry....uhhh, errr,I use Axciton for the quality programs and the high quality customer support. Yeh...that's the ticket! Ted IP: Logged |